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Welcome to the Dreaming, The Dreaming is a vague, shifting realm of symbol, belief, and imagination where people go to, well … dream. Managed by a humble servant of the Dreaming, @TheKindlyOne. Powered by @reddit2telegram.
My thoughtson season two as someone who has only seen the series
My Thoughts on The Sandman Series (Spoiler Warning)
I want to clarify that I’ve only seen the Sandman series so far. I haven’t had the chance to read the comics or the books yet, though I’d really love to dive into them at some point.
I absolutely fell in love with Season 1 the worldbuilding was incredible, and it really drew me in. I was very excited when Season 2 came out. While I still prefer the first season overall, I think Season 2 is still really good and worth watching.
That said, my main issue with Season 2 is the pacing, especially in the early episodes. I feel like the story would have really benefited from having more time to develop the relationships, particularly the one between Dream and Nada. I didn’t really feel the love between them or fully understand why Morpheus was still so obsessed with her and determined to win her over. Season 1 kept what happened between them vague, which I actually liked it added to the mystery. But in Season 2, their entire relationship falling in love and her eventual imprisonment in Hell was all crammed into the same flashback. Because of that, I struggled to connect emotionally with their story. I didn’t fully grasp why Dream was still holding onto it after all that time, especially when he had other relationships (and even a child!) after Nada’s imprisonment.
I do realize that the dynamic between them might be explored more deeply in the comics, and maybe that helps it land better there.
I definitely enjoyed the second part of the season more (I’m obsessed with Delirium!). But again, I felt like the relationship between Dream and Orpheus could have been explored in more depth. That would have made their eventual fallout hit harder and helped me understand why Orpheus felt like his father didn’t care for him.
I’m really looking forward to the next part of the season, and I hope they go more in-depth with Dream’s relationship with Nada. Season 1 had such strong pacing and emotional build-up, so I was a bit disappointed by how rushed some of these arcs felt in Season 2.
That said, I do appreciate that Season 2 seems to be centered around Dream learning how to apologize and take accountability. I’m curious if others picked up on that theme too, and I’d love to hear from anyone who’s read the comics, does this track with the source material?
Just to be clear, I don’t hate the season at all, these are just some thoughts I had as someone experiencing this world purely through the show.
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Is there going to be a crossover event between this show and The Bear in the second half of Season 2 where they explain this?
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Season of Missed the point
I've sort of enjoyed the series, despite all the changes it made to a text I've loved for 30 or so years. A lot of that could be changing times or attempts to be inclusive or just different ways of looking at things -- I preferred the way I knew them, but art is art, right?
But the changes made to Season of Mists completely changed everything about the story aside from the most very basic framework. We can start with Nada's story -- first, in the original, it's said that is not the only version of the story. That's an important distinction. But that version has key elements lacking in the retelling. Nada looking hard and obsessively for the man, and being warned off him. Morpheus then pursuing her after she acknowledges who he is and runs away -- she runs as soon as she knows who he really is. Then she kills herself and he still pursues her. Then, when she rejects him again and he gives her the choice, he condemns her to hell. In this book version, she sort of looks for him, she knows who he is and hooks up anyway; only after the fact does she acknowledge the consequence. Then she condemns herself. Dream doesn't send her to Hell; he just doesn't stop her.
This seems minor but its not. Because in the show version, Dream really did nothing wrong yet.
Onto the second part. The issue where Lucifer gives Dream the key is one of my favorite singe issues of any book. Lucifer having a deep monologue/discussion about the nature of Hell -- the underlying concept that the only reason people are in Hell is because they want or think they deserve to be -- is glossed over. You don't have Braschau pleading to stay. You don't have the demons making their case. You also don't see all the little versions of Hell that exist. The majesty and scope of the place is gone. it's just a castle. In the show, Lucifer is sad, almost maudlin. That's not the way s/he comes across in the book. I can't believe they turned the goodbye with Mazikeen into a peck on the cheek. Lucifer isn't walking away because he's tired or sad or frustrated with his place in the universe. He's walking away because he CAN. That was the point. Except not in the show.
Okay, onto the next one. The gatherings were fine. I preferred it more formal than people storming the gate, but okay. But Dream taking counsel from Lucienne? Maybe, because theyve spent the whole series painting Lucienne as much smarter and more specialer than Dream. But from Nuala? (and we'll just skip over that they also changed the point and motivation of Midsummers).
But here's the even worse part. In the original, God decides what to do with Hell. God explains Hell's purpose, why he made it in the first place. Why he made Lucifer rebel. Remiel and Duma are heartbroken, understanding what is being demanded of them. They are angry. The claim it's unfair. But Duma takes the key.
In this version, Dream tells God what to do. It's an insane storytelling choice, one that undermines every single thing the story is saying. I watched last night and am still shaking my head about it.
Okay, the Nada rescue was fine. But the aftermath? Dream asking permission to visit someone in his realm? Nada in recovery? A few days to get over 10,000 years in Hell? She's shown as traumatized and weak and angry -- a bit more on that later -- instead of the queen and paragon she is. The show paints her as a victim but she has not been victimized. And even if she was, it shows her vicitimization as defining. Every bit of her dialogue was weak. Dream begging her to stay was also weak. the case being made that Dream is that easily manipulated by desire was weak. And the change to her ending was amazingly weak, because instead of her restarting life anew, she's being set up to play (I think) Thessaly's role in The Kindly Ones, but from a place of rage and revenge (so both of them working from that angle). We'll see. I'm not even going to think about those implications to philosophy and feminism until it appears, but ....
Two last little rants. The first is they don't show Remiel and Duma taking over
The Sandman episode ratings
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Who is the singer for this song by Orpheus?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcPlbI_9szo
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Season 2 has Part 2 coming later this month
This may be obvious to some if not a lot of you, but after posting a different post here, I was amazed to find how a lot of people didn't know season 2 didn't end on a huge cliff hanger??
Maybe they didn't watch it on Netflix or seen any of the trailers, but Volume 2 of season 2 is coming July 24th, there.
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Melissanthi Mahut is an all too brief miracle
In the lead up to the wedding, as Destiny addresses Orpheus and Eurydice, Calliope is way in the background. There's almost no need for her to react to what Destiny is saying, but she steels herself to his words. It's almost entirely unnoticeable and out of focus but the performance is there. It's the look of a mother wanting to defend her child.
Destiny finishes as she approaches the focus of the frame.
"The priestess awaits, children. Your wedding begins."
As she says this, she looks at them reassuringly, firmly drawing their focus away from the ambiguity of what amounts to a threat from the future. There's a beat, and she cuts her eyes at Destiny. It's just a second of emotion before she turns back to the soon to be newlyweds, but it is SO real. So cleanly acted. Her transition into it and back out of it is remarkable, and a great tiny slice of acting.
Mahut makes me wish that Calliope was more prominent in the source material. She's great in every frame.
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Remiel and Duma
I was looking forward to their reactions to being the next Lords of Hell. The audiobook really made that scene powerful to me, just too bad it wasn't included.
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I wasn't going to watch Season 2, but I'm glad I did
Since the news of S2 being the last, I was bummed out. I wasn't even going to watch because I can't stop thinking about how many great stories we're not getting adapted.
Well, the show's been great so far. My only criticism is how everything is being rushed. I envisioned Season of Mists taking half the season like S1 did, but it's gone in three episodes. However, I do understand the necessity of such, unfortunately (because we don't have much left).
One day, if we ever get another chance, I hope it is animation. People need to stop underestimating animations.
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We're so fucking back! Just finished The Dark Crystal after watching the movie first and had a second of depression because I'm like, "shi!t, there isn't anything as good as this on Netflix I haven't seen already", then I go to home page and I see Season 2 Sandman and I'm on cloud 9
fuck ya
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Delirium
Can anyone give me more details on her? She absolutely fascinates me! I know they tease her about possibly making sense, but she truly does, just not in a way easily understandable.
She also comments to Destiny about knowing more than even he does, especially about their creation and why she changed from being Delight.
I tried using wiki to get more background on her but there really isn't anything there except that she most likely has premonitions, but the rest probably do also.
She is definitely a character I would love a deep dive into!
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Celebrating the good in Sandman season 2
We all know the controversy surrounding Gaiman. The purpose of this thread is not to address that. If you want to criticize and complain about it, find another thread. This thread will be an exercise in separating the art from the artist, regardless of how you feel on that point. I love the Sandman comics, and I really love season 2 so far! Let’s push past all of the current negativity around the show and try and see the good, because there really is so much good to see.
I’ll go first: I’d honestly give the show a solid 9/10. It’s beautiful, heartfelt, dramatic. You can tell that the creators behind the show feel passionately about faithfully adapting the comics. I’m honestly surprised at how faithful the show is to the source material, especially in the small details. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. But it is sincere, and that kind of creativity has been severely lacking in most media recently.
Personally, I think the Season of Mists arc was handled best, though I love the story of Brief Lives more. Season of Mists lends itself well to the three-episode/three-act structure, where Brief Lives leans more into character drama. The cinematography is excellent, the CG believable and beautiful, the sets and costumes are incredible, and the dialogue engaging. Of course, our favorite emo-goth is just as pitiful as ever (can someone please hug him?? Lucienne, I volunteer you). Other character standouts this season: Nada (the actress is gorgeous, and really captures the character’s pain); Puck (REALLY wish we could have seen more of him! Jack Gleeson embodied him perfectly!); Delirium (I love her in every way), Death, of course; Orpheus and Lady Joanna Constantine (seriously, they had so much chemistry. Can we get a spin off? Jk, but not really); even Desire (the argument with Dream at the end of episode 4 was a personal favorite).
Favorite moments: the whole family dinner, Lucifer’s goodbye speech, the presenting of the different parties in the Dreaming, “But I do not love you” and the stars in Dream’s eyes afterward (iykyk), Delirium, all the time, anywhere, “So live”, THAT moment at the end of Family Blood (I was sobbing).
Small criticisms: I wanted more time spent on Orpheus and Euridice, maybe more time on certain moments (esp the end scene of 6, before the Fates appear) in general. Due to the timing of episodes and the monumental task of squashing the rest of the story into a season, I understand. Like I said, it isn’t perfect, but it is beautifully done.
What are your favorite things about season 2 so far? Please be respectful and keep major criticisms and complaints about Gaiman out of this. Let’s celebrate the good!
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this is a joke. it's still a great series.
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I'm so sad to see this series go
This show was done marvelously well. It's so captivating and it draws you into the mythology of it.
I know they probably didn't plan to end it so soon due to the recent allegations of Neil Gaiman, but do you think will we ever get more Sandman?
I feel like there is not topping this show.
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Delirium isn't quite Delirium
Esme Creed-Miles does a fine job with what's on the page, but what's on the page lacks the, well...the whole delirium of it all. I understand how hard it would be to write this character for any actor to play, but the up and down of it all should be more apparent.
Delirium seems to be very much in control of herself. Very intent and almost mindful. I feel like they attempt to hand-wave this ("I'm trying very hard to be good") but ultimately it does a disservice to the character.
I'm still enjoying the show and amazed that we got it at all, but this portrayal of Delirium (again, not Esme's fault) falls short of the mark for me.
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He is a terrible Dad
Just think about it. He is the "God" of dreams, and his Son lives for hundreds of years as just a head.
Bro, could make him take a nap so that he at least doesn't realize what's happening. Yes, many thanks that he later built a temple for him so people can take care of him.... best idea ever
His Aunt is also an idiot. She literally curses him. I mean, at one point, his wife is going to die, and then he lives forever without her.
I am pretty sure they are all sociopaths in some way.
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Hell, and Remiel's speech that preceded the "That makes it so much worse" and then the last bit with Lucifer. In the original,. Lucifer is on a glorious beach at sunset, and in the end he gives God his due. In this, we're left with a sad and depressed Lucifer on a sort of ugly, overcast beach insulting God. A total narrative change.
I don't know whether this was a good story or not because it's so different from the original masterpiece. I don't know whether they did it to punish Gaiman or because the writers think God is an asshole or whether they couldn't get past the current obsession with "trauma" to tell a bigger story. But it's disappointing because this is the only chance the story will get, and it deserved to be so much better and bigger than it turned out to be. Season of Mists is the only smart, intense and thought-provoking piece of philosophy in the run, but it brought real concepts and ideas to a manageable place. Except this didn't. It asked no questions, it was just a quickly told narration to show .. I'm not even sure what.
Sorry this was so long. I got woke up early by a chirping smoke detector and needed to rant.
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So emotional this season 😭
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The mods here fucking suck- lazy and useless
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About Orpheus' Body
This might be a dumb question but why couldn't Dream (or another Endless or deity) just give Orpheus a new body? Restore the old one?
Is there a rule that prohibits undoing the damage done by the Maenads or undoing consequences of the furies?
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Order vs Chaos, Banquet Guests, Orpheus and his "new friends," and more BTS Pics
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When my social battery runs out
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Mods refusing to make s2 episode discussion threads??
This sub has 3 mods- 2 of which have been active in the past day, the other within the last 2 weeks. One of thems even been actively commenting on posts in this sub?? Yet for unknown reasons there’s still no discussion threads for s2 episodes..?
Is this just classic ‘reddit mod’ behaviour/laziness or is there an actual reason behind these mods refusing to do the ONE thing that most people come to these show subs for?
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I loved s2
I loved season two, I was worried when the whole hand over of hell thing started because honestly after rewatching the last episode of season one... I didnt want a fight. that would be so boring, out of one conflict into another. but they didnt do that. we saw more and more of the endless family and I loved it. I didnt think he would explore the others realms, destiny, desire, delirium, and I REALLY didnt expect him to do death, or hades, because everyone always 'leaves it up for interpretation' but no. I love when I honest to god dont have to think too much about it. ill re watch season two much more than the one time watch of season one. rarely does a show get BETTER after season one. I cried at the ending, and destruction was right, Dream changed so much from the start of the series that we get too see as the audience. when he cried!? yes, because he got to the point of being able to cry, to feel those emotions. and as someone who struggles alot with being impassive, of not feeling much I *understand* dreams struggle. the fear and hurt of being told by someone that you cant love because what even is love?
I expected the Lucifer thing to be a ploy, expected them to kill dream or try... but no, the whole episode on edge when in reality they were just tired, done, after 10 billion years and *that* is more real then anything else he could've put.
this show could've been ruined at any one of these points but it just. got. better
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Desire is Mason Alexander Park
And Mason Alexander Park is Desire
Such a great casting they embody this role and just have so much fun. Their voice has this underlying purrrrr
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Stories you wish were adapted?
I'm happy with what we got but there are a few stories I miss
Parliament of Rooks - could have been done between episode 3 and 4 while Dream is unhappy. It would help give Matthew, Cain, Abel, Eve and co more screen time and the stories in that chapter are excellent imo
Worlds End - would have been a great episode after Brief Lives before >!The Kindly Ones, to set up how that ends, especially the Klaproth!<
Three September's and a January - maybe it would be too many one offs to do this as well as World's End but it's a great story featuring all of the Endless
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Are there different "The endless" family for different universes or it's just one "The Endless" for the multiverse???
I haven't read the comics.....Just saw the show and was a bit confused!!!
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Despair...
Soooo....is it just me or is Despair's only physical similarlity between graphic novel and screen that she's fat?
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Delight and Delirium being connected
THIS WILL HAVE SEASON 2 SPOILERS
I just finished s2 and one of the most interesting characters to me was Delirium, specifically that she used to be Delight. I've been reading a bunch of different theories on why she changed from some kind of abusive trauma inflicted on her to a broader, inevitable loss of innocence as she matured and processed the universe, and I agree more with that side. That it isn't necessarily one specific event that happened to her, but that she was doomed from the beginning to slip into what she is now.
Delight represents pure, unfiltered happiness, playfulness, and innocence. Delirium represents the desperation to remain in a delightful state when the world no longer supports it. As she experienced more of the universe's death, loss, cruelty, and entropy it was impossible to process that through a lens of pure joy, she was fated to attempt to, but clinging to that was impossible, forcing her into a chaotic disassociation from that cruelty and entropy as the only path forward. Clinging to delight in a world that cannot always be delightful broke her.
And it's such a sad and human arc. Those that try and stay happy and light-hearted in the face of overwhelming hardship often detach, develop coping mechanisms, and slip into madness if it's bad enough. The only way for her to remain Delightful in a broken world is as Delirium, she cannot be rooted in reality, and that's her realm to humans. She mentions in one line that Judy Garland often visited her realm, someone who we know was mistreated and incredibly sad, yet often projected a sense of innocence and and happiness in her roles and music. She laughs as she says it, but it's incredibly sad of what it implies.
And the reason it's so painful for her to return to a cohesive state of Delight as when her eyes change back to the same color is because being rooted in reality while also in a state of perpetual joy in the face of all the universe's hardships takes an enormous amount of effort. It's an exhausting task to be given. Most of us are feeling that especially right now with the state of the world, trying to continue on with our lives with some semblance of joy while all hell occurs around us.
I've seen some people suggest that as she processes more, she will eventually reach a state of radical acceptance and become something else. I don't think the author of the comics ever had her transition to another state from what I've seen, so unless the show makes a big change I don't know if we'll see that. She just is as she is now, she was given a shit position.
And her siblings that speak of her as a nuisance irked me, as if the girl wasn't given the most unsustainable position.
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